Furthermore, children with 'defects' would be disposed of at birth. What did Plato believe? Does the moon exist? What is PHYSICALLY pulling or pushing these two objects? Plato’s pagan views were influenced by philosophers such as Heraclitus (c. 600 BC) and the Pythagoreans (c. 500 BC). For this we must assume something (some--thing, aka some object). The Lie in the Soul . Socrates: Socrates was one of the most important philosophers of Ancient Greece. He limited knowledge in order to allow room for God. Truth is the reality that transcends the external world of the senses and is something that must be seen by the soul, which is also a remembering of our Divine origin. The history of philosophy is just footnotes to Plato (Alfred North Whitehead, I believe). No regress. The Greek philosopher Plato thought similarly that it was right for the 'better' to rule over the 'inferior'. Hopefully you can use these terms consistently. To be rational, we must be as objective as possible. And all this nonsense about light being a wave AND a particle AND a wave-packet and so on. both shape AND location? Etc. Take the charge on an electron and its relation to a protons charge. The early dialogues: Examining life. Ed. An object, or empty space. Let's try another thought experiment. Plato stated that sometimes desire contradicts reason and gives evidence of people doing what they want rather than what is best for them. If the answer is yet another object. A wealthy man, he owned at least 50 slaves and created the first university school, called "The Academy". Platonism is the philosophy of Plato and philosophical systems closely derived from it, though contemporary platonists do not necessarily accept all of the doctrines of Plato. Reply. However, I think you've oversimplified the definitions. Again, we have to define what we mean by "exist". Plato: Political Philosophy. Ad infinitum! The imitations we see are all part of the world of appearance, whilst the perfect forms are part of reality. Originally and strictly speaking, atoms have no parts and no relations. Energy does not exist, it's a concept. Philippians 1:23), as Plato did. Plato believed that society would work better if none of the 'guardians' (composed of the ruling class and the auxiliaries—those who help the rulers) should own any personal property. Gravity is a loose term for a description of what we observe (e.g. Plato believed that the perfect state would contain four qualities: wisdom, courage, self-discipline and justice. Rather, Plato used it as a general term for the thing that makes people act. Plato was far from the only person to have concerns about the Athenian democracy. We're done. For example, an effect is not physical. :D. So, I say that the fundamental entity we hypothesize (assume) absolutely 100% MUST BE a continuous medium of some sort. Everything else that we see with our senses is just an imitation of this perfect version, or perfect 'form'. We already "know" about this (i.e. developed such distinct areas of philosophy as epistemology, metaphysics, ethics, and aesthetics. … So, if God exists, he must have shape, then location too. We can only define and assume existence, is basically my point. In order to look and analyze Plato, I believe we must first consider Socrates as a political player. Plato draws an analogy with sleep. He believed that happiness and virtue can be attained through knowledge, which can only be gained through reasoning/intellect. We don't reduce a chair to smaller parts; that's not science. I predict a force: a HEAVY force! Platonism is the philosophy of Plato and philosophical systems closely derived from it, though contemporary platonists do not necessarily accept all of the doctrines of Plato. Humans are unable to turn and see the reality. Physical: possessing shape (or contour, structure) against space, Presence: location (or 'set of distances') from a given object to the remaining objects, Space: that which has no shape, boundaries, or surface. Nonetheless, in terms of philosophy, Christianity does share some important features with Plato. Plato believed that everything in the material world is only a copy of a perfect form existing in a realm of universals. For further conve­nience, Plato’s system of education can be broadly divided into two parts: elementary education and higher education. In his metaphysical inquiries, Plato explored the question of how human beings can live a happy and self-fulfilling life in such a contingent world that is subject to continuous change. But these don't mean anything in science: they're all mathematical terms, or at best they're abstract or circular descriptions of what we observe. Can't be both. Plato provides a detailed account of the degeneration of the state from aristocracy to tyranny via timocracy, oligarchy, and democracy. In conclusion, God is the limit of man in terms of knowledge. If the Moon exists, hopefully it does so regardless of whether we can prove it, supply evidence for it, sense it, measure it, observe it, etc. The form “did Plato” might mean, if one is conciliatory: did the most likely mouthpiece of Plato, the character Socrates, hold this or that view? He believed that abolishing family units and replacing it with a state nursery that would seize and take care of everyone's (including rulers') children would be best for society since the children would not have any family-related biases and so would be completely loyal to the state. This is why theists and atheists run around "proving" and "disproving" gods to each other. Right now you should listen to our past and present, and step into wisdom clothe with understanding to become LOVE. It is because of his theory of forms that Plato believed that philosophers should rule the world—they are the only ones who seek out true knowledge and not just imitations of it, and so they are the only ones fit to rule based on knowledge. "So I think the best way is to ask you, what is it in existence that makes an electron negative? besides this point, I thing that he had some great ideas. In order to encourage loyalty from the people of the state, Plato devised a lie about our origins: that everybody was born fully formed out of the ground and memories of their upbringing were just a dream. DK (author) from London on July 07, 2012: "Look: a string pulls on a fishing hook. In The Laws, Book 10, he identified two reasons why we should believe. Sleep comes after being awake and being awake comes after sleep. Plato was one of the most important classical Greek philosophers.He lived from 427 BC to 348 BC. If it turned out that small objects caused the effects we see as kinetic energy, then what causes those objects to cause their effects? When did Atlantis sink? E.g. This is the problem modern "physics" has (really, it's math-phys and religionism). They use terms like force, field, mass, pos/neg, etc. Knowledge about a certain imitation of a true form, say the chair in your living room, is not 'genuine' as this knowledge is not timeless: the chair will deteriorate from the form you know it as and with it the value of your knowledge. Otherwise, what is this spiritual entity we're talking about? Plato identified three elements of the 'soul'. What did Socrates believe in? but we still don't know how/why this field exists and how/why it works! Though the land be good, you cannot have an abundant crop without cultivation.” Thus he personally believed in metempsychosis. It has nothing to do with proof, evidence etc. The soul disposition of an individual soul, fixed for eternity, determines the type of human the individual will be in life. Hence they invoke ptolemaic explanations (aka circular descriptions). What Plato proposes for government looks like an "enlightened" variation of Sparta. ", "there must be forces in existence as part of the universe's natural laws". Take out ALL observers: what's left? It's a description of what we already observe. I can visualise one ball hitting and pushing another. The New Testament writers believed that we remain conscious after physical death (e.g. So what is the mechanism? Kant. Without effort, you cannot be prosperous. For instance, there are dozens of different types of shoes. So, let us ASSUME some kind of shape for the purpose of our theory. Hopefully, if we observe the Moon, or God, HOPEFULLY they already exist! Plato did not believe average people were intelligent enough to make decisions about government. The early ‘Socratic’ dialogues are … Consider then the natural phenomenons of the universe such as gravity, EM radiation and the like. No regress. A wealthy man, he owned at least 50 slaves and created the first university school, called "The Academy". What Plato means by 'genuine knowledge' is his idea that the world of forms is timeless—i.e. Woohoo! Plato said, “Apply you both now and in the next life. They MUST be already connected, somehow. Discuss your reaction to Plato's "Allegory of the Cave." Both Plato and Aristotle would likely be opposed to abortion, based on The Republic and Nicomachean Ethics, respectively. Colour? the pen falls to the floor). Answer. Plato believed in regulation of necessary step towards conditioning the individual. His deep influence on Western philosophy is asserted in the famous remark of Alfred North Whitehead: “the safest characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato.” But it cannot be aether, this is now taboo and for once rightly so: aether is irrational and has no explanatory power. Why did Plato believe in Forms? Plato would – and did – regard Protagoras’ view as a dangerous falsehood. If we just say well, one field attracts and one repels, or it's to do with positive and negative, or charge or fields, or whatever; we still haven't explained anything! He uses this as evidence for the existence of the different parts of the soul. Hopefully, the Moon exists because we define exist consistently. Once we have the WHAT (hypothesis: structure, shape) we can say HOW (mechanical process) and thus answer the main WHY question. The idea of structure is key to Plato’s philosophy and may be directly linked to … Ask Question Asked 1 year, 11 months ago. This includes not only no relationship of action or interaction, but also there is not relation of being known. He lived from c. 428-347 B.C.E. Applied to real life, this means that people must look at many things to get an idea of the Form of something. He also argued, based on this theory, that there are ultimate truths in the world. Furthermore you've committed an infinite regress! Asked by Wiki User. If we cannot measure Him, or touch Him, or prove Him, or if He is elusive or vague or shows us no evidence for His existence, does he not exist? We've left the question entirely. From this belief, he developed the Parable of the Cave, the philosophical theory for which he is best known, according to a website hosted by St. Anselm College. Active 1 year, 11 months ago. This is repeated so often that many people simply take it as … Wow very interesting person. In his metaphysical inquiries, Plato explored the question of how human beings can live a happy and self-fulfilling life in such a contingent world that is subject to continuous change. Hi Philanthropy2012, thanks for your comments. Because in this case the string is already connected to the hook. Nothing is created but everything is transformed. Thus Plato speaks of "the gods (hoi theoi), or "the god (ho theos)", in some cases of "god", but then in the same way we would talk of "man", using the word as a generic name. Wiki User Answered . No, this ain't science. John asked: How did Plato's Theory of Forms answer Heraclitus and Parmenides? E.g. This who we must evolve too. Instead, they must deduce reality from the shadows before them. This is in the context of approving of eugenics where he invented a method of regulated sexual intercourse, allowing it only at special festivals where people are given sexual partners via a fixed lottery. Fine. The Form of "shoe" would therefore be the perfected example of all shoes. Plato believed that the perfect state would contain four qualities: wisdom, courage, self-discipline and justice. The ONLY property objects have objectively speaking, must be shape. (Einstein tried to get around it with warped space and all this madness). We simply use the chair (hypothesize it) so we can proceed with our theory. If it doesn't have shape, how can it exist?! John S. Uebersax, PhD. In Plato's view, the things that people experience in the ordinary world are like shadows reflected on a dark cave wall by flickering flames. John S. Uebersax, PhD. In this article, I will go over some of his general views as well as some of the more specific ones that he is known for. Well, if you're objects are made of magic, then sure, your predictions will always come true. I find this definition more appropriate because it takes into account things that we have not figured out yet. There absolutely must be a fundamental object. You have absolutely no grounds to say that! What did Plato believe in? You FIRST have to demonstrate (illustrate) the object you're talking about. However Plato believed there was a far more sinister nature to democracy. Kinetic energy has nothing to do with our perceiving it. In book VIII of The Republic , Plato begins to describe several stages of government that are intolerable, yet unavoidable. An effect is what a physical object DOES, not what it is. This page is part of the "e-mail archives" section of a site, Plato and his dialogues, dedicated to developing a new interpretation of Plato's dialogues.The "e-mail archives" section includes HTML edited versions of posts that I submitted on various e-mail discussion lists about Plato and ancient philosophy. An electron, like any object, simply has shape and moves in a certain direction or expands or contracts according to whatever your theory is. ), whose real names was Aristocles, was born into an influential aristocratic family in Classical Greece. This perfected shoe is an example of an archetype, or the shape upon which all reflections may be patterned. This is rational: this is physics. Namely, you state that in order for something to exist, it needs shape and need to have physical presence. Plato believed in regulation of necessary step towards conditioning the individual. Is Socrates an avatar of Plato? Describe the education of the guardians as it is presented in books 2 and 3 of Plato's Republic. The Hypothesis stage of Science is really: 1) definitions, 2) exhibits (i.e. Nadine May from Cape Town, Western Cape, South Africa on May 08, 2014: Wow. In this way, all citizens are encouraged to regard each other as siblings since they all came from Mother Earth, encouraging loyalty to each other and the land that they inhabit. But no pull! Does god exist? Did Plato Believe in Reincarnation? Can I draw "an" energy? He believed that happiness and virtue can be attained through knowledge, which can only be gained through Can you imagine a chair without shape?! A discussion of this Meditation has been opened in Debate and Discourse. Plato believed that there was only one 'real' version of anything—the perfect version. Plato (c. 428 - 348 B.C.) They're looking for the Perfect Form, and they'll not find it, because it doesn't exist. Who did Plato believe should rule? This means that he believed that ideas were very real, more real that objects themselves.Plato believed in something call the “World of the Forms”. Top Answer. So I think the best way is to ask you, what is it in existence that makes an electron negative? Plato's Proofs for the Existence of Gods . So let them draw me a picture of it, even just a crude mockup. The ONLY way one object can PULL on another is via a continuous mediating object, like a rope that swings a ball around, or a string that reels in a fish hook. Gravity is not a thing (object). Plato has some understanding of what been said, no matter the circumstances in our journey we all must treat all with LOVE. Plato believed that there was a perfected representation of everything in the world of the forms. Of course, with his profound ideas also came a sea of worthless ones - part of the creative process! by phil on Saturday May 16, 2009 1:47 PM . The Theory of Forms. The belief in pagan gods permeated his world. Quantum) has no pull! Plato was one of the first consequentialists—he believed that it is the end result that matters, not how you get there. Individuals should live in a just and rational state. Plato’s main argument for the immortality of the soul is found in his Phaedo. When Plato died, in 347 B.C., after Philip II of Macedonia had begun his … We already "know" (observe, measure, etc) the pen falls to the floor. Plato believed that only people who have been proven time and time again to make judgments that are in the best interests of society without clouding their judgment with personal interests should be fit to rule. If I "predict" a car exists, then go looking for it, I'd better know WHAT it IS I'm looking for! No more than the earth can pull on the moon by magic. If we have no evidence for the Moon, does it not exist? According to Auguste Compte, any progress must be proven. Ad infinitum! Yes or no? For example, if I accept that what exists is "that which has physical effect" then there are some immediate problems with this I see. Picture any two objects in a vacuum. I would define as something being in 'existence' as something that has ''physical effect'. Those people with gold were to be 'Rulers', those with silver 'Auxiliaries' and those with bronze 'Workers'. Plato believed in this and believed that it is only through thought and rational thinking that a person can deduce the forms and acquire genuine knowledge. Teasing plato’s beliefs out of the dialogs is hard, but the Republic, the Timaeus and others point to some divine hand ordering the world. Answer and Explanation: Plato described ideal societies in two of his works, the Republic and the Laws. Some 2,500 years ago, Plato taught why we should believe in the gods. Likewise just as death comes from life so must death return to life again. In Plato's Republic, Plato's view on government is that a successful government is contingent on having the ruler with the best mind. No no, infinite regress has nothing to do with it. We're simply trying to explain how one objects pulls upon another. In Plato's view, the things that people experience in the ordinary world are like shadows reflected on a dark cave wall by flickering flames. Or, is Plato writing about the historical views of the Socrates who died in 399? Plato believed that the world we see around us is only a shadow of reality, which he referred to as the world of the forms. Here arguments for and against a Platonic belief in reincarnation are presented. He talks about removing children with defects, but this could be a wide spectrum of children. Plato's idea should be tolerated and referenced for the development of a more rational mind, but just like the intellectuals in society that he has depicted--they're not practical. But it is Socrates who is credited with having the greatest influence on him. To be virtuous is the only good, and to not be virtuous is the only evil. The nutcases at CERN think that we can foerver reduce particles to yet smaller particles. This means that he believed that ideas were very real, more real that objects themselves.Plato believed in something call the “World of the Forms”. The force definitely exists, irrespective of any definitions that necessitate it to have a shape in order to exist. Desire, Spirit, Reason in that order. Wisdom comes from the Ruler's knowledge and wise decisions. [They've forgotten that we need a physical object to do physics!]. nothing ever changes—and therefore knowledge about the world of forms is 'genuine' knowledge. Then we can proceed with out theory (God made the Universe, whatever!). No! He thought that physical things in the … rule out human observation. So someone, maybe some Phd expert, should be able to simply draw one for me. The reason I chose these definitions is that they're objective, i.e. I say no! A rope pulls one person to another, in a tug of war contest. It is a force that causes this charge, not more objects? Exactly the right Q! Does this table exist? This was very good information. Now we've solved the age-old philosophical "problem" by defining key terms as objectively as possible. This meant that if two 'gold' composed 'Rulers' had a child who was deemed to be made of 'bronze' then the child was to be a 'Worker'. Thank you. This arises from the problem of identity and change,… The problem Plato had, which the philosophers have never really figured out to this day, was that of understanding what we mean by "exist". Then we can move on. ‘Plato’s ideal state is democratic in its truest sense’ Lange (1939). After finding out that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, I guess nothing of this sort disturbs me anymore. A calamity at the very heart of democracy, it would lead only to tyranny and subjugation. DK (author) from London on July 06, 2012: Once you break that down and realise that there must be forces in existence as part of the universe's natural laws, the interesting question is to ask why these and not others.. And it's all too easy to become irrational when thinking about these topics because we know so little! As long as IF -- IF -- it exists (or existed), it has some kind of structure (shape)!!! a ba hypothesized ll (physical, noun) can move (dynamic, verb) or bounce or roll or whatever. First of all, an explanation of why Heraclitus and Parmenides held the views they did. Plato (c. 427-347 B.C.E.) With the fertile imagination of man, he has invented an imaginary person (God) endowed with specific characteristics who holds the supreme power, through an absolute (omniscient) plenary path based on subjectivity by abstract convictions (spiritual doctrines). It is really applaudable that a man centuries ago had amazing philosophy, perhaps that is the thing that keeps him distinct from general people of his time. Courage is demonstrated by the Auxiliaries who defend the lands and selflessly help the Rulers. no shape! Plato believed that different people have different strengths and weaknesses, and that the ideal society is one in which each member understands and performs her or his proper role. Then the same question applies. It's just a contradiction in terms (contradictio in terminis). What shape (architecture) does it have? No, it's to do with measurement or sensation or whatever (actually it's an incredible loose and malleable term). Size is relative, requiring a comparison to another object. And so on. That's the only way we can then proceed with some kind of theory. CEO Compensation and America's Growing Economic Divide. Plato's Concept of the Body and Soul Distinction A:Plato believed that humans could be broken down into 3 parts: the body, the mind and the soul. Has shape, or has no shape. What we know from that is that there must be forces in existence accompanied with objects. In other words, Plato was a mystic. There are ideas in Aristotle's ethical arguments which might allow more leeway for the act of abortion than is found in Plato, but in general the great weight of both philosophers' arguments would seem to be against abortion as not morally permissible. However, I do appreciate utilitarianism, which eliminates conflict by valuing the consequence of "the greater good" over individual interest or society's moral frame work. Here arguments for and against a Platonic belief in reincarnation are presented. To say that the relationship between these two objects does not exist is to deny that which we can see. After mastering mathematics, then one can proceed to the study of philosophy. Plato was one of the most important classical Greek philosophers.He lived from 427 BC to 348 BC. These are abstract concepts we use like left and right, or love and hate. … Socrates was Plato’s teacher and was quite an influence in his life. Then, what are your exhibits? We don't reduce any more. Our wrestler believed in the pre-existence and immortality of the soul, holding that life is nothing more than the imprisonment of the soul in a body. THIS is infinite regress. The best way to explain Plato's theory of forms is through an example: although there are many types of beds (single, double, four-poster), they all share one thing in common that makes them beds: they all try to achieve being a bed. if not, no — by definition. So I prompt again: what do YOU mean by exist, object, concept? An interesting article on the philosophies of Plato, but some ideas were totally lacking any compassionfor his fellow man.Was Plato not the man who claimed to have known about the continent of Atlantis? Otherwise we go back in circles. Thus we can also conclude that the first stage of the scientific method (aka the hypothesis) should always start with definitions first. 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